From COO to Executive Coach with ADHD with Antonia Bowring.

the adult diagnosis is what I would call like a profound and practical journey because I

mean I just got off a call with a 54 year old guy who works in sales, who got a diagnosis a year

ago and told me about job losses and things he just didn't understand why he and I'm going to use

his words wasn't normal so he's now in his early 50s and like there's this whole profound

piece that he has to integrate right that he has to make sense of that he has to heal like all

those little everyday things for a lifetime are like nicks you know a lot of knife nicks that really

add up to I'm going to use that word trauma and that's like a real profound journey and then just

at the same time we got to pay the bills we got to pick our kids up on time we got to get taxes in

we got to you know show up with the presentation ready and and you you can't let go of building up

your scaffolding to achieve those practical goals because we want to be seen as reliable responsible

human beings yeah absolutely so to me it's like this integration and dance of both parts yeah and

I think part of it too is that at least in my own case and through therapy and all that you

learned that like you've been trying to course correct your whole life unknown that you are

have ADHD right so you've been trying to and you've been told you're a failure by you know

people parents whomever schools teachers so many people that you you know I forget this

stat there's yeah you start to believe it and you hear all this negative talk and then you

develop negative self-talk as well and then and then once you are diagnosed and you receive

treatment hopefully you can start as you said like start feeling from that trauma I think I think

trauma also comes from because of how heritable ADHD is they say you know just about as almost as

heritable as height there's like about an 80% chance that one or both of your parents also has ADHD

and then you start thinking my mother for sure yeah and you start thinking if they were not

diagnosed ever and perhaps never not with us anymore as in the case of my dad you start to realize

some of the trauma that you might have experienced was in part because of their undiagnosed ADHD

and so that helps to forgetness and 100% yeah yeah 100% yeah yeah you know it's funny because I think

about the home where I grew up and I remember the fights my parents did a lot of traveling between

Victorian Vancouver yeah because of my dad's work and they would have these fights every time

because the way my mother would pack the car because she definitely had undiagnosed ADHD was like

little plastic bags with things in that she oh I forgot this I and so they would arrive with

like a multitude of small plastic bags with one thing in them right yeah right and and we could

never find Scotch tape or scissors or car keys they were now I am like obsessed with those things

living in their place you know yeah yeah it's funny though because you develop these coping

mechanisms where like I've said it on the show before to to some folks as well but like I'm

extremely punctual like anal with punctuality like I'm always on time everywhere and of course

I always equated it to my dad being punctual and like but what I've learned again same sort of

thing as a coping mechanism of like just making sure I'm not late so I'll show up places early

but it's the same sort of deal like you knowing where the scissors are knowing where the Scotch tape is

knowing that it's packed or you know if you're traveling or whatever so tell me yeah tell me a

little bit about your journey so yeah Vancouver you started in Vancouver and you're in New York now

in New York City tell me about that a little bit about that journey yeah yeah I'll make it very

brief I worked in international micro finance for a long time so I traveled all over and

but was very drawn to New York I'm sure the energy right yeah it's great and ended up living here

like on and off out of a suitcase doing the kind of Canadian NAFTA thing right NAFTA it's funny to

hear it come up these days and and ended up working here getting my green card just before 9-11

I was so lucky in management consulting and then some C-suite roles and then working at an

organization that went bankrupt and that led me into coaching because you know it's funny people

say oh you're so entrepreneurial and I'm actually not I'm I'm quite risked versus in a weird way

but it was like I was at zero and it was really easy to do this I had been very interested

like in when I was a COO what I liked most was the kind of strategic planning and strategic talent

management and I literally I would say I had a very up and down path through work the work world

and then I found coaching and it was like okay so this is what I was born to do and I felt like

very typically found out I had ADHD when my my oldest son got diagnosed and had never really

thought about it and you know you go through life just thinking well I have impulse control issues

I have attention issues and I just kind of can't hold focus for long oh I'm so flawed

and you say that to yourself over and over until it's just who you are

and then one day someone says to you well actually guess what like you just have a different

brain and it's not better it's not worse it's just different yeah so let's learn about it

and let's just kind of embrace that it's a bit of a pain in the ass sometimes but you know what

knowledge is power and and and I got to say day for me that was like like literally I almost have

a physical sensation of shame like literally washing off me and it took a while to talk about it

out loud and then I just started hearing like the most moving and sad stories of particularly adults

who really carried a lot of shame for so long and felt they were less than yeah and we know we're not

right yeah we definitely do what how old was your son when he was diagnosed he was just between

middle and high school okay so what does that make him 14 15 so a kind of late diagnosis

and you know he's even talked since and said I knew things weren't right earlier

yeah but he was very high performing but at what cost you know sure yeah yeah no I asked that too

because I was curious whether I mean I know for a lot of a lot of parents especially moms who

have a child diagnosed as they are you know helping their child through that that treatment and

learning about it themselves in order to cater to their to their kiddo that you know they often

start seeing seeing it in themselves or if they learn about the heritability traits and things

like that but I think it's also some some kids if they're older too maybe not 14 15 or maybe where

they get they start learning about it and they may call you out and say hold on mom or dad

yeah yeah guess what which is kind of like me and my mom now who's 88 and she would take us both in a

bar fight that is so funny she's very very healthy very yeah yeah she's great well but you know

it's interesting I am quite sensitive about my mother's 86 and she's starting to forget things in a

big way and what I'm really realizing this is the woman who you couldn't can never find the tape

and scissors and the car keys well guess what when you get to her point and you don't have systems

or whatever you want to call them systems habits routines of writing things down of keeping a

calendar of whatever is your system you are in so much deeper trouble because she's got

none of that like those kind of formed neural pathways to to scaffold dementia yeah you know

and it's really hard it's it's really hard you can't start learning that stuff at 86 yeah I know

you're right about that I mean I think yeah obviously not a doctor but with dementia too I mean I

think even in in my dad past of dementia and Alzheimer's and so like I think I think even with

the best preparation unfortunately with dementia that's that's gonna catch up work at some point

but I know what you're saying with and I'm curious for you like how have because you've

obviously had a really great successful career as a COO and so forth tell me a little bit about

the systems and obviously I assume or yeah this was pre diagnosis for you so how are what were

some of those systems that you had in place to be able to keep you you know focused on on the

important tasks running running businesses and teams yeah to answer that the first part of that

would be um and I'm sure you've heard this from other folks I've heard it from folks I I coach

I did really well in college and a lot of graduate schools uh two of them yeah but I think I worked

50 to 75% harder not smarter but harder than other people and at the time I didn't like I

remember these are the very old days of being in the stacks as they were called in the library writing

research papers with piles of note cards and like being unable to kind of understand that there was

a sort of strategic smart way to read books right notes put thoughts together instead I thought I

had to read every book right every note and and and so everything took me a really long time

because I was wildly inefficient which then fed into some confidence issues and we see where

that goes and um so I started by being an over worker as a way to compensate for a lack of

efficiency yeah let me let me say it that way and I would say that overworking was my main strategy

to create some organization does that does that make sense it does yeah it does make sense I almost say

like you know because I'm 52 now and and I think about like the stacks as you're saying and how

even even for the least organized person working in in that's environment I almost think it's

it's better than it is these these days because you didn't have the internet

so you know when you research when you research with a browser man all it takes is one notification

and squirrel yeah but I know what you mean like I I I went through this process working on a book

idea while back where I took years of my blog posts and I wrote them all all the titles did I

had them all I put them all into a spreadsheet and then I and then I wrote out the title and I

was like the spreadsheets not working for me so I wrote out the title of each blog post and like

category of it in brackets on a note card and then I had the stack of no cards and I'm like this

is what I need and it's like hundreds of no cards so then I put them all along I'm like what am I

gonna do with these cards so then I put them all along this bar was long table and and then started

like looking at them trying to categorize them and putting them in separate piles and then I was

like yeah what am I doing here oh Dave and now we have AI yeah yeah and you could just oh yeah

eat it all in yeah yeah yeah it's amazing I've been I've been loving yeah and as a kind of

early adopter and a lot of tech I mean I'm definitely a big fan of of using AI for a lot of the

work that I'm doing these days oh yeah also with you know there's a line that I love in technology

and innovation really which is whoever built ships built shipwrecks I'm not naive enough to know

that like we I could be digging my own grave the more I feed AI because God knows things might go

really weird one day but for now you know that's the tool so yeah yeah it's a powerful one

it sure is but to but to finish to come back to so that was sort of early and I feel like that

like overwork carried through and I would say that you know it was usually deadlines it was usually

just right on the cusp of those deadlines that got everything firing and getting the work done

you know interestingly it did change when I became a mother because I just had less time right

and I did get more efficient because I just had to yeah I had fewer hours available

and the stakes are higher and the yeah yeah but the so I would say sort of the classic

deadlines and I was constantly like triaging to do lists yes like can't and but they

but I didn't understand oh I'll do this online oh and then well I'll do this in a notebook

and then I kind of couldn't find everything and link it all and then I'd get frustrated and then

I'd start a new system which now I understand you know what we love bright shiny objects

and we love variety and like I use notion for two years and now I won't touch

I don't judge it but that's the difference it's like you know what I used it

it worked for me now I don't need it right maybe I'll go back but there's no judgment as long as I

have a system that is working for my needs yeah and you know that as you learn about ADHD you

learn to your point you know bright shiny you know we crave novelty and as soon as the novelty

runs out or runs off runs off no runs out runs runs away whatever then we run away from whatever

like solution we have found yeah I have found yeah a couple of points to to what you're saying one

oh one in particular was you know I wrote a book that was published by Pearson and people ask me

like how did you write the book with undiagnosed ADHD it's like an 80,000 word nonfiction business book

and you know first of all without my wife I never would have finished it so there's that

a very important point but to your point I signed a contract I received an advance and I had

contractual dates to deliver chapters and thank you and thank you and my next book that I've

been working on that I'm hoping to self-publish I keep thinking I'm kind of dragging my heels on it

and like maybe I do need to get a publisher a publisher just so I have a contract I have an idea

for you so I also wrote a book I had no my ADHD was diagnosed I wouldn't have finished my book

if I had not taken medication I really needed medication to kind of sit and focus on writing but

I I was published by Wiley but since it was my first book and I was totally like nervous about it

I hired my own editor so even knowing I had the contractual obligation it was very far away

like it's a year you know it that's hard so I hired my own editor

ps to anyone listening never think you're gonna make money writing a book there's other ways it

can turn into income but give up that thought right now let me get that right out of your head

and and I but I hired this editor and so I'm very like uh well it's funny

I respond a lot to authority like to feeling obliged even though I hate rules

but when I've paid someone and they're counting on me I would finish my chapter because I had to

get it to her yes because if I didn't get it to her then she couldn't read it and we had

a session booked and I had to pay her for that so that became the system that motivated

me and that's what coach so I'm with you and and working myself as as a coach I have found that

too to you know where and working with coaches in the past we're like exactly to the same point when

you pay a coach you're paying somebody to you know help you with whatever projects or things that

you're doing and so yeah if you're not gonna do the homework I mean you're throwing your money away

and I was I had a call with a prospective client today actually too uh earlier and he is self

diagnosed ADHD and we were talking about coaching and I said you know I would I would love to help

you but in order I want like and I can and I have helped plenty of people with or without ADHD

but what I was saying was you know you should consider going to your doctor and getting diagnosed

and possibly treated if if that's what you want to do because honestly if you do that you're

going to find the coaching is probably going to be more effective because you're going to be able to

focus and do the work right um yeah so you're prolific on TikTok man you are blowing up on TikTok

tell me about that oh I'm so happy you brought that up thank you that is like oh did you

are you did you follow me or whatever it's called yeah yeah yeah yeah okay good um you know

I've been doing that for oh I think it's over a year now and I it was like it's a total passion

project I have a lot of passion project and um I post every day at least once something about ADHD

that's correct and thank you oh thank you and um I don't know I just love it and you know what

those folks on TikTok they are damn smart I'm telling you because sometimes I'll post something and

I'll go no that wasn't very good and they like like you get ten likes yeah and then you post

something and you think damn that was good and you can see like they're smart they know what they

want and I've learned what do you think the two things are that they like the most the content

what would be your guess probably like like like like probably a valuable tip of some sort and then

also brevity is probably key with the TikTok people yeah I don't know I know what are you I'm a bit

like well you're yes they like specifics and they love anything to do with habit formation

and they love anything to do with what it's similar to habits but like routines and rituals

like I did something about a morning ritual of a client of mine and what he did it was kind of

fun because he would get up drink his coffee and scroll right yeah and so oh I saw that video

yeah keep going keep going yeah yeah yeah no and so we talked about okay you make the coffee but you

leave a pile of books where you drink your coffee and you put your phone in a drawer and you start

like the coffee is this kind of pleasurable reward right you sit there you get to drink the coffee

and you have the you make it so easy right like the environment just leads you the phone gets put

in a drawer and the books and you you can open them in the middle you can go back where you were

you can have fiction non-fiction yeah and it really changed how his day began that's brilliant that's

it's such a good good tip I mean yeah I think of like Glenn Gary Glenn Ross like coffees for closers

right no coffee until you've like done something so as a reward I like that and I do that from time

to time I like yeah the the what's they thinking of there oh yeah yeah so I I've been journaling

more and more and work and I try to journal and we splurged about a hot tub in 2020 when the world

was imploding and it was like the best investment ever my wife and I say that every time we get in

and I get in daily I love it and but for the longest time I bring my phone in there and the whole like

time would just fly by and I'd be like haven't done anything and so I stopped bringing my phone

and one day I as an experiment I brought it like in my journal I wrote I wrote a blog post about

this a while back I wrote I was reading a book a non-fiction book business book I'm reading the book

and I decided okay instead of bringing my phone I'm just going to write down what I would pick

pick up my phone to look up as I'm reading for like 20 minutes or whatever and so I did that and

I ended up with a list of like 10 different things or so and then when I reviewed that list I thought

okay most of these things aren't really important maybe one or two would be worth looking up but

most of them are not that important but more and more importantly though is I gauged it would be

somewhere between like three to five plus minutes per thing I looked up and so then you multiply

that by how many times so that's like you know 45 an hour of me picking up my phone and looking stuff

when in reality I didn't really need to look up any of that stuff and and instead I wrote it down

so later on I could look back at those notes and think okay yeah that one I'll look up the other

stuff is stupid I don't need to look that up who cares if Jack lemon was in gling gling gling

gross like you know huh you know it's funny in a very different way I got into this habit of

listening to the audio files the audio you know the AI voices reading the headlines and they're

like eight minute articles or whatever and it cut down on how much I listen to podcasts where

I actually feel I learn a lot more yeah and I was I was actually thinking that I needed to shift

out of that habit because I don't know news is usually pretty transactional and also

by the next day it doesn't really like does it really matter what to I can't even think something

I read today but it it really isn't that important oh I know frequent flyer mile programs

how people are using them different yeah who cares like really that but there's so many great

podcasts out there I do feel and do you feel like this is someone with ADHD that my version is

I constantly need to be feeling I'm productive yes I like the joke in our family is okay when we

watch a movie what's our mother gonna do yeah old laundry sort papers knit like I can't just sit

there because I'm sure that goes back to my childhood because my ADHD mother never stop working

right yeah like around it's it's an issue like because you know I do I have a meditation practice

and all that but I feel like I don't integrate that into the rest of my life it's like I meditate

but then I'm like chasing goals all day long yeah yeah I feel the same I definitely feel the same

way of being productive I'm I'm definitely guilty of like one or at least I mean you're better

because you're at least being productive while you're being distracted by whatever movie or TV

show you're watching at least you're doing something productive where like I would pick up my phone

right and then I'd be like looking on my phone and watching the show and I'm a big movie and TV

nerd and I love like I love quality good film good television these days especially too so I do

try to focus on what I'm watching too because I love the cinematography and the acting and the lighting

and and and all that stuff so I try to it's worth focus it's worth for me it's this is my probably

one of my big struggles for me it's oh if I can do three things yeah that's three times better

and it's not I know it yeah it is and by the way I end up doing a lot of not that well

because I wasn't focused yes it's it's like that action activation yeah and I know that feeds the

dopamine yeah but then sometimes the results are not that satisfying yeah because they're a bit

slap-dash yeah or you'll have to rewind part of the show to figure out what you just missed

because I do that yeah it's like reading the same paragraph over and over um yeah yeah and I

think yeah I think in a way it's about choosing your focus and choosing what you're gonna spend

time with like if you're investing your time in a show let's say and so like I just with my wife

and I I just watched the series for the second time this is what I do I like watch shows for the

first time and if they're good I'll convince my wife to watch it and so we'll watch we'll I'll end

up which one so I just watched disclaimer on Apple TV um which I have a watcher but I hear it's

fantastic it's fantastic and and it's definitely worth paying attention to I am very much being the

the Toronto movie nerd guy that I am I'm very careful about spoiling things so I won't I won't

I won't talk too much don't tell me but it's brilliant yeah well well can I tell you a little bit

about this ADHD success planner yes please yeah yeah yeah so I wrote coach yourself which was like

coaching frameworks but the thing people were most interested to talk about a couple of the

communications framework in it a values exercise and my ADHD journey and so when I started talking

on podcasts and in interviews about this I realized that something I was just using with clients

this productivity and planning system people were like oh we'll tell us more like well I want to try

that and one guy in particular a guy called Russ Jones he has a podcast he was like you got to write

this down like you got to share this and so I thought okay this is going to be eight pages do this

four steps in your and it's 70 pages but very spaced yeah it's it's like it's like it's like

got a lot of sparkle for the ADHD crowd and you know I'm really proud of my book the the one

published by Wiley but this ebook that I just published my you know you like an ebook available

off my website I am so proud of it because I get every email alert when someone buys it I

I need to change that I don't know how though and it's like South Africa Germany Ireland

Oregon and I'm like oh my god I am making a difference in these people's lives because this

book helps you if there's like three simple pieces to it your planning session once a week

that is self-care the weekly buckets would to do's in them that you create for the week in your

planning session and then you're to do lists yeah which becomes so easy to do the pivotal thing here

is this list of your weekly planning buckets that arc of looking at the week in a dedicated

time with your coffee or your tea or I don't recommend wine because your plan can get a bit crazy

for the week but I it's so simple Dave but and so flexible and so personalizable and it works

it's amazing yeah I definitely I haven't read it so I definitely have to

no worry I gotta grab a copy because I definitely definitely need that too for my own my own

planning because that's definitely something I'm not great at is waking up in the morning and

looking at my calendar to see what do I have in store today without thinking long term sometimes

I mean that's definitely something I'm guilty of well and and I think there's something about I

wish I had researched back this up but from my clients and and from everything I've seen

there's something about the time block of a week that is a really important organizing principle

and when you sit down in this planning session like it's laid out in the book and you go okay what

are my buckets oh one of mine for example is business admin right if that bucket usually doesn't

change what's in it each week changes and always the fourth week of the month is invoicing

is in there but there's sometimes I don't even have daily to-do lists but the power of having

collected kind of the priorities for the week but not in a laundry list in a in a categorized

manageable way is really a powerful way for my brain to stay on track during the week is it

analog mainly or digital the so yeah you can do it however you want but everybody who uses it except

for a couple of people have said that it's most powerful when they write it out yeah and I have

people like clients that have project management systems you know like complex calendars that

are color coordinated and you have to have a calendar too but then okay that's a lot right to

manage okay on one piece of paper what are my six categories what I call buckets and what's in them

that is really the focus this week yeah I've done something similar years ago that I stole from

I think was Michael Hyatt had something called my ideal week or something like that and I created a

variation of it in digital form which was a Google calendar and I had it sounds similar to the idea

here but where I would have blocks so I would have instead of like specific items on the on the

the calendar I would have like blocks of time like three hours for this and three hours for that

or two hours for that and so on and then the theory was then I would have my regular work calendar

and my family calendar and I get with Google calendar you can turn them on and off so you can overlay

them yeah so you can see what fits into what and then the theory for me was and it would work

sometimes until point which is okay moving forward okay we're going to meet to do this interview

and I'm only doing these interviews at this time of day or in this block I can see on the calendar

that it's in the wrong block and I need to move it to a different block or whatever the task is

so that it doesn't so it fits in the correct block where I start to slip is when deciding what to do

and then that thing becomes email and then email takes all day yeah because it's business development

and it's admin and it's sales and it's invoicing because it's all email right and he tips about that

like like getting lost in the inbox yeah well so one thing just responding to your calendar is

this is a classic right and this is what I try to coach people to do if you have your meetings listed

in your calendar which I mean you would be shocked by the number of people with ADHD who don't

I mean it's on I don't know how anyone in 2020 I said today how anyone in 2023 and someone was

like yes 2024 I did that on the time I don't know how anybody today exists without a calendar

you can't so but let's say if I look at my calendar for tomorrow my calendar tomorrow is literally

back to back with it like three half hours for the whole day open okay if I now after this

get off look at my here's my weekly you can't see it but that's my weekly bucket list if I start to

do a to-do list tomorrow with 10 items and then I look at my calendar and realize I have literally

three half-hour periods I am setting myself up for failure for self yeah for self-recrimination

but if I look at my calendar and go okay what's realistic in two hours of working time yeah

then I'm I can do what you're talking about I can slot in half an hour like I'm committed to

working on my book proposal half an hour a day I'll get there yeah so I'll put that in a half

hour slot I'll probably leave one half hour for email now if I have a huge deadline the next day

okay I know I what am I doing tomorrow night I might have to work but you can't put 25

laundry list to-dos when your calendar has eight hours of meetings yes yeah right now then the

question is executives will say well I still have to get all those to-dos done that's another podcast

episode yeah but the point is um like those are just very simple building blocks that also make

us feel like I feel way more in control when I get most of the things done I say I'm gonna do

but I can't if I don't set myself up for success now you're a hundred percent and the

and I think that there's so much power to analog as well like to pen it to pen and paper I do

I mean there's a I believe it's called the productive production effect or productive effect

production effect where it helps your memory remember what you're writing down so it actually

makes you more engaged because you're physically writing it down it helps you actually retain

that information too but even even just striking things off a list with with ink as opposed to

you know digitally ticking a box it's just so much more satisfying man a little dopamine this time

is racing by and I'm loving the conversation before we before we wrap up is there any anything I missed

asking you about or any questions you have for me at all I I really wanted to make sure I just

talked a little bit about like what's in this extremely flexible and by the way this is not

how I make a living right yeah yeah this is a this is the cost of a of an oatmeal latte

yeah and Manhattan right so most people you know I won't say everyone and if anyone wants

and can't afford it find me and I will give you the code and you can have it for free I think the

the one thing I want to just say is planning and prioritizing don't solve everything but they are

they need a reframe as self-care because you're not doing it to make other people happy you're doing

it to take control of your life your schedule to build your confidence to lower your cortisol

and to start the weak feeling empowered not behind the game already I agree yeah yeah I just

wanted to say that yeah no you're you're absolutely I mean I think also when you reframe like I've

found success in reframing things beyond because what happens is I I beat myself up when I'm not

hitting those deadlines or doing those that work yeah so for me I find that instead of focusing

on on my wins I if I focus on the results which are you know I trip for my family somewhere or

supporting a charity or you know someone I care about yeah like financially helping my kids get

through college god hell help us there but you don't mean like all these all these things that like

that are bigger than myself that or even just doing this podcast I mean you know I'm looking for

sponsors of trying to like make this you know to do this more frequently and so on and I'm doing it

also because after learning from you know and I've said it at Nazum at this point on the show but

learning from Russ Barkley about life expectancy for those with undiagnosed and untreated ADHD is up to

13 years less or can be oh I did not know that yeah and learning that changed this little mission of

mine or excuse me this little passion project of why squirrels to my mission because the more people

I can educate through my workshops through my you know presentations through this podcast or on

the blog or wherever the more people I can reach the more those who think they might have ADHD can

go and get tested and get the treatment they need and uh yeah because there's a lot at stake and

yeah I mean the world's a lot better with you in it yeah yeah and Dave I I that's so resonates

because I think that um for me it's about eliminating pain and shame and you know like shedding the

pain and upping the potential because everyone has so much to offer and there are so many flawed

incredibly flawed self narratives that get in the way of our ability to achieve our potential

and I really feel like this the ADHD the ADHD is so real and it causes so much pain in so many lives

and the fact that so much of it goes undiagnosed and and it's almost a bit of a joke today right

oh yeah I must have ADHD or oh everybody seems to have a diagnosis it diminishes how real it is

and I am so happy there are people like you and and I'll put myself in this category that

like feel real intrinsic motivation to get the word out to help people and to just let people know

they're not alone and they're and it's your brain is wired differently that's all yeah that

oh this has been amazing how can people get a hold of you and and inquire about your amazing

coaching and and your book and so forth so the ebook is on my website under I think it's under

ADHD it's not that hard to find um I'm on LinkedIn uh my name Antonia Barring I'm on TikTok thank

you for finding me Antonia Bowering 963 and uh yeah those are the main ways cool yeah yeah and uh

I'm just so what what a lovely conversation and thank you so much for what you're doing

thanks for joining me this has been this has been a ton of fun so yeah and I'll make sure to include

links in the show notes so folks can click on over and uh yeah book some time with you

well this has been awesome thanks again thank you Dave